Talk to me about modified CIO

[Sue]

Don't have the energy, time or focus to read a book on the subject.

Not in agreement with Ferber (total CIO) so when posters have said they did "modified CIO", what did this look like for you and your little one?

AND THANKS!

[jensfirst]

The book that I liked was called "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child" and they have it at the library. You don't have to read the whole thing, just the parts that apply to your situation. It was really helpful and has charts for how to do the modified CIO.
What we did was have set timed intervals when we would go in to her room and verbally try and comfort her (no picking her up!). For our DD going in seemed to make her cry harder, but it was more for us than anything, so we wouldn't feel like we totally abandoned her. So I think the intervals for us started at 5 minutes, then 7 minutes, then 10 minutes and so on. Then the second night you would start at 7 minutes then 10 minutes, then 15 minutes etc. We also did it for her naps.
Here is the link to the thread I posted our progress in...
http://www.kidsinvictoria.com/forum2/vi ... sc&start=0

HTH, KUP!

Jen

[Sunnygirl]

I read a lot of them... and finally gave in and read Ferber the second time around. From what I remember he's not actually total CIO - I was surprised. He doesn't feel a baby should just be left to cry for an hour... especially as the parents will then probably give up and it'll make matters worse. I did feel though that his timing was probably a bit too long for us.

Your challenge will be that your ds actually fights sleep and with his age it might take a bit longer.

With ds I got him sleepy, left him for about 5 min at a time, went to burp, give him his soother, etc and eventually upped it to 10 min at a time. After 3 days I'd lay him down and he'd give a happy sound, roll onto his side and fall asleep (but only 4.5 months). Mind you - he did scream pretty loud during that 5 to 10 min - he was a pretty angry guy and I had to do it with dh out the house as he couldn't handle it

Dd wasn't quite as easy. Every time she cried she'd get a massive burp - plus she didn't take a soother. I was also "softer" and with ds around I didn't want as much crying - so tried the soothe & burp for 2 min, then put back down again. Cry for 5 min and repeat.... over and over. I'd also feed her at least once or twice during the night.
For the longest time she needed to be picked up at least once before she settled as that was the new habit.

[jensfirst]

If you don't have a chance to read one of the books, I thought I'd add a couple things...
- the point of going in to comfort them is NOT to put them to sleep. The whole point of the CIO is to teach them to go to sleep on their own, so if it sounds like your DS is starting to slow down with the crying or maybe get close to sleeping, DON'T go in, even if it is time to. And when you do go in remember it's not about getting him to stop crying, but just letting him know you are still there, he isn't alone.
- we had the same phrase we would use when we put her down to sleep and when we went in at the intervals "shhshh, nighty-night". That's all we would say.
- Keep the visits relatively short when you go in, like one minute.
- Sometimes it gets worse before it gets better (often around night 4-5). If you've made it that far, don't give up! It's normal, it's called an "extinction burst" and you can make yourself feel better by knowing that it usually gets much better after it gets worse!
- It's better to do all or nothing....so either commit to doing the modified CIO and stick with it (if you can) or don't do it at all. Doing it only sometimes makes it much much harder and it takes a lot longer to work.
- Nap times we had a time limit of 1/2 hr. So if she was still crying after 1/2 hr we'd get her up and forget that nap. But night time there was no time limit.
- The book talked about how babies take 3 days to form a habit (or get rid of one)- I found comfort in this - even if sometimes we fell off the CIO wagon (which we did), it didn't take long to get back on it.

Hmmm....if I think of anything else I will post it, hope this is helpful!

[saucy]

Pretty much what jensfirst said...

We started at 1 minute, then 2, then 3, then got up to 5...sometimes 10 minute intervals. That was the most that I could wait and feel ok about it. We tried going up to 20 minutes a couple of times - it was too hard for me.

If he was fussing but settling and not screaming anymore, we didn't go in as that would set off another huge fuss.

We cut down on night feeds - I'd still give him 1 bottle in the night, but that was absloutely it.

It definitely took time - sometimes we'd do this for 1 - 2 hours in the middle of the night. It was exhausting - but so was getting up every hour anyway. It took about a month to slowly change things. So, be prepared that CIO is not always instant (despite what those books say!). For us it was a slow, but consistent process. And it only worked when we were absolutely firm.

Writing out our plan and sticking to it in the night and not wavering until we discussed what we'd do differently the next day was essential.

[my2sons]

Jensfirst, you are a smartie! I agree with everything you said. Only diff was that we didn't use CIO for napping as they both napped well and were okay when they stopped at age 4.

Writing out our plan and sticking to it in the night and not wavering until we discussed what we'd do differently the next day was essential.

This was KEY for us. We agreed on a plan in the reasonable, sober light of day and stuck to it. That said, our eldest was 10 months old when I finally gave up and we decided I was READY! He yelled for 2.5 hours the first night (standing in his crib, SO angry! we talked about this the other night reminiscing and now the guy is almost SEVEN!), then 45 minutes then next night and 5 minutes the 3rd night and that was it! We went in to verbally soothe and pat his back (didn't even lay him down as he just got angrier and fought harder) every 10 minutes.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Yikes, I just reread that and I can't BELIEVE we're considering #3!!!

[DuckyBug]

I've read a lot of your posts about sleeping, and I can relate to a lot of it!
For us, DS was waking up about every 30-45 minutes, every night. I tried every suggestion thrown at me, and was giving up... I had a bed in his room (so DH could try and sleep through it) and would co-sleep with him so that all I had to do when he woke up was shove a boob in his mouth. But neither of us were getting the sleep we needed. I totally get your comment on how you're parenting all night... and then all day. It's hard to want to spend fun time with them during the day, when they latch on to you all night as well!
I had tried CIO before, and wanted to avoid it... but enough was enough for me.
I found an approach that was a bit gentler (you stay in the room with them for the first few days or until you're comfortable, leaving no room for any thoughts of abandonment). I'll e-mail it to you.
DS was about 9 or 10 months when I really started with CIO. The very first night, he only woke 3 times.
It's not an instant fix, but for us it worked.
What I found, was that if there was a part that I wasn't comfortable with (like leaving him alone at first) I would change it. As long as the consistency is there, it worked!
I really hope that you find something that works for you!

[Teresa D.]

I followed pretty much the same routine as jensfirst. The longest interval I ever left dd to cry was about 15 minutes. My dd is very strong willed. After the first few nights, she would only cry for a few minutes, but sit there in her crib listening for us, and if we came up stairs, she would hear us and start shrieking. Then she would eventually fall asleep sitting up She eventually figured out that that was not going to work, and now falls asleep laying down Also like saucy, I really cut down on the night feeds. I figured she COULD sleep through at least 5-6 hours with out eating, so I would wait that long without feeding her. If she woke up after that time, I would feed her. I was good about letting her cry when she first went down for the night, and she would fall asleep on her own. But if she woke at 2am etc., I was a sucker. I would go into her, give her a kiss, or even pick her up and give her a quick snuggle. She doesn't wake up to nurse during the night anymore. I'd say it took about 1-2 months to officially cut out that night time feed.

Good Luck Sue!

[Sue]

Oh, I give. CIO is in our future, as soon as ds pops these next teeth...

A few questions that I had lots of time to think of in all my wake-ups last night:

1. When I go in at 5, 7, 10, etc minutes - do I pickup or just pat and soothe as best I can? I know ds will settle momentarily when he sees me thinking I will take him out, and when he realizes I am not getting him out, he will start up again. Is the idea just to pop in, reassure you are still in the house somewhere?

2. So say we do CIO for the nighttime go to sleep - OK, pretend after long hours of screaming he is sleeping. Well, the kid wakes 12 times per night, so do we repeat each wake-up to be consistent? Do we wait a few minutes, then go in, reassure him quickly, and leave to let him CIO again?

3. Similar Q, do we do CIO naps and bedtime all at the same time, in the name of consistency?

4. At what point do I nurse him for hunger/thirst in all of the crying/settling/waking/sleeping?

5. He is not even 8 months, and he pulls up to standing easily. Laying him down is pointless, he is onto his knees, then feet within seconds, before I could leave the room, really. So, I suppose he will just flop down from exhaustion eventually?

6. Duckybug - staying in the room - I like this idea, but worry that ds will just not *get it*, and it may make him more upset? Not sure I have the patience to sit there and watch him mess around, then cry, and scream.

Think that's all my Qs on the matter - my brain is mushy

[jensfirst]

Hi Sue, I totally recommend the book "Healthy Sleep Happy Child" from the library, it is a great resource. In fact I am going to the library this morning to get it out AGAIN as our sleep situation has gotten to a very bad place (which I will post about shortly for advice ).
Good luck.

Jen

[Sunnygirl]

Sue, I'm not sure if you remember, but a while ago - probably 4 to 5 months of age - I mentioned a coworker was having a similar issue with ds. They've been "slowly" doing the CIO - so modified, but went through a 2 week phase where they extended it to more of a CIO - to the point that for 2 nights they actually let ds cry for an hour before he fell asleep. A day or so later he started sleeping through ..with 1 only wake up now.

If you want to start slowly - I'd do CIO at nap time (only when first falling asleep - don't worry about putting him back to sleep).... and at initial bed time. You may just see him "learning" to go back to sleep makes a difference during the night too.... Once he learns "how" to go to sleep it'll be easier for you both during the night. However - I'd personally wait at least 5 min before going in each and every time.

Don't worry about the standing/laying thing - they figure it all out. I remember once going in to check on ds - he had fallen asleep happily - and he was sitting in his crib asleep I like to check on my kids shortly after they've fallen asleep - and while it was hard with dd who woke at the slightest sound... I think it's helped them to ignore sounds better in the long run.

It's better to not pick up your kids if at all possible. Once you do - they'll expect you to do it every time and it may become a crutch - like a bottle or soother. With dd I had to p/u as she'd get a huge burp when she cried - and even now she insists on getting out her crib for one last hug before settling. If you do p/u - make it a "shorter than 2 min" hug (I think I read this in no-cry sleep solution). You put them back down even if they're still crying. You don't need to stay in the room if they're crying - they might be angry at this point - you just reassure and then leave again. First 3 days will be the hardest - but once they know what you will or will not do then they'll be more accepting of that.... kind of like with dd if you say no she can't have something... if you give in... it'll make it harder for her to believe you mean no the next time.

If ds has cried on/off for over an hour then I'd give him something to drink... if you can get him to take a sippy cup of water though between "scheduled" feedings that would probably work best... he is a little young still though so you may just want to nurse him at that point - but don't let him fall asleep nursing... or if he does - wake him and then put him down.

[saucy]

A few questions that I had lots of time to think of in all my wake-ups last night:

Here's what we did pretty much, if I can remember correctly:

1. When I go in at 5, 7, 10, etc minutes - do I pickup or just pat and soothe as best I can? I know ds will settle momentarily when he sees me thinking I will take him out, and when he realizes I am not getting him out, he will start up again. Is the idea just to pop in, reassure you are still in the house somewhere?

I would usually give DS his soother and lay him down (even though he could stand up again) and say "night night, go to sleep now" and then would walk out the door calmly and quietly - without hesitation or looking back - I think that part is key. Once you make eye contact as you are walking out the door - it's all over!

2. So say we do CIO for the nighttime go to sleep - OK, pretend after long hours of screaming he is sleeping. Well, the kid wakes 12 times per night, so do we repeat each wake-up to be consistent? Do we wait a few minutes, then go in, reassure him quickly, and leave to let him CIO again?

I think there are different ways to do this, depending on what book you read - but this is what we did (I *think*) - we'd wait 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 minutes before going in, and then once we got to 5 minutes, we'd wait 5 looong minutes before we went in after that first initial time. Also if he was fussing but not really crying, we'd wait and see if he settled as going in then would just upset him more.

3. Similar Q, do we do CIO naps and bedtime all at the same time, in the name of consistency?

Again, that depends - I think we started with naps for 2 weeks and then did naps and night time at the same time after that.

4. At what point do I nurse him for hunger/thirst in all of the crying/settling/waking/sleeping?

I would set a time - i.e. I'd feed him before bed (7) and then around 12 and then around at 5...and then I think we phased out the middle of the night feed.

5. He is not even 8 months, and he pulls up to standing easily. Laying him down is pointless, he is onto his knees, then feet within seconds, before I could leave the room, really. So, I suppose he will just flop down from exhaustion eventually?

Yep.

6. Duckybug - staying in the room - I like this idea, but worry that ds will just not *get it*, and it may make him more upset? Not sure I have the patience to sit there and watch him mess around, then cry, and scream.

Me staying there just made him more irate.

Think that's all my Qs on the matter - my brain is mushy

[Shopgirl]

Hi Sue,

We had major sleep issues with our second and I was so exhausted (our oldest still woke during the night too). So, I decided one day that I would put dd down and if she cried (which she of course did), then I would let her cry for 15 minutes. After 15 minutes I could go and get her. The first time was awful.... I think I even went outside so the cry wasn't as loud But after a few days, she was stopping crying in the 15 minutes... and going to sleep! I was so excited! And once she got the hang of it, she would have one 2 -3 hour nap every day! Wow! I was so excited! I didn't want to be in and out of the room too much, and I didn't like the idea of letting her cry and cry and cry.... so this was my compromise and it worked wonderfully (although it was still VERY hard for me!!).

And it's important to remember, that no matter what method you try.... not every method works for every baby.

Good luck!