CIO - when to start? (LONG)

[new_mommy]

I'm about to lose my mind!

Our DD is about 3 and 1/2 months old and is such a bad sleeper/napper. I thought things were getting better when at 2 months she started to sleep 6 hour stretches. Her routine hasn't changed:

8:00 bathtime
8:15 soft music, soft chatting
8:30 last "nurse"

At 2 months, she would usually fall asleep nursing. Then we would put her in her crib and then she would sleep until 2:30ish and then wake up again at 5:30. I was ecstatic when this first happened...thinking I could deal with this...only waking up twice. But then after about 3 weeks of that, it all changed. She would cry for her last feeding but wouldn't fall asleep. Then she would rub her eyes like crazy indicating she was tired and cry cry cry. Even holding her and rocking her would not soothe her...which I can tell you is the worse feeling in the world! Being her mommy and not being able to calm her down

My DH and I can take turns holding her and she would continue to cry. And she is really really strong too. She will kick her feet and arch her back which takes a huge toll on my body. She's about 14lbs and it's tough to hold her and try to calm her when she kicks like that! We started trying the CIO 5 days ago. But I don't know if it's just too early. We would sit by her bassinet, rub her tummy, talk to her etc.

The first night, she cried 45 min (every 10 min we would pick her up for a minute to calm her down). The second night, just 15 min (picked her up once). The third night, she just looked around for 5 min without crying and just fell asleep. I thought...wow that's it....just 3 days! YAY right? WRONG. The 4th night, she cried 10 min (we didn't pick her up). And just last night it lasted 10 min again (we didn't pick her up).

She also now wakes up on cue every 2.5 hours. I was getting used to that 6 hour stretch too! So now I wake up 4 times a night again making my sleep horrible. I feel cranky in the morning and then her crying during the day just does it for me. I feel like the world's worse mother.

Also, she is a poor napper as well. Again at the 2 month mark she would take 3 naps (morning about 1.5 hours, afternoon about 2-2.5 hours, and evening nap about 45 min-1hr). Now, she will yawn and rub her eyes for a nap and cry cry cry. No soothing will work. She will usually cry herself to sleep in my arms. Then I put her down. She will almost exactly to the minute wake up at the one hour mark. Sometimes she will look refreshed and we play...but 15 min later will rub her eyes again because her nap wasn't long enough. And then we do it all over again. Other times, she will wake up and just start crying because she wasn't done her nap. So my days now are really tough. She will wake up in the morning, play for an hour, nap for an hour, play for 20 min, cry, nap for an hour, etc....There could be like 6 naps in a day!! Has anyone tried the CIO for naps too?

I am seriously going to lose it soon. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[monikah]

DS is exactly the same age. He's a pretty good sleeper, generally, although he does have 4-5 naps a day. Recently he's been starting waking up more frequently at night to nurse. There is a major growth spurt around 3 months so I'm chalking it up to that. He used to wake up cranky from naps until we started using a video monitor. I used to always assume he didn't get enough sleep, but it turned out to be more anxiety than anything. Now I go in the minute his eyes open and he's a happy boy.

She also now wakes up on cue every 2.5 hours.

When she wakes up, does she seem genuinely hungry?

Personally, I'm not for CIO. When DS wakes up frequently, there is usually a reason, it just takes a little investigating. Right now, I think its hunger that's doing it and I expect things to go back to normal after this growth spurt. Some times its because he's too hot or cold. Sometimes its because I've swaddled him and he really wants his hands free so he can suck his thumb. Sometimes he's having trouble controlling his arms and needs swaddling.

As for your DD having trouble falling asleep, can you try different positions to nurse her in? For instance, the last nurse before bedtime, DS does best when I nurse him on the bed and then pick him up and put him in his bassinet after he's asleep. I don't know why, but it helps him relax more completely as he gets pretty wound up in the evening. During the day I usually nurse him in the rocking chair. He also needs to eat a lot just before bed, for instance, spending 1/2 hour to 45 minutes on the bed and nursing from both sides. He has trouble falling asleep at bedtime if I just nurse him on the nursing pillow, but the bed works great, he is so comfortable there.

[monikah]

I wanted to add also, do you think light is an issue for her? DS is sensitive to light. I know now that summer is here, it has been much more so. I have put a roller blind on our window to block out the light. It is still light out at 8pm now, is it not? For DS, he's ready to go to sleep for the night when its dark outside. He goes to bed around 10:30pm every night, which I know is late for many people, but it works for me as I also go to bed late, and of course its dark out.

He was waking up much much earlier than I wanted, like 5am! I prefer him to have a 12 hour sleep at night. So the roller blind helped with that. Now I have more control over his wake up time which is around 10:30am.

Last week he was sleeping a 12 hour stretch at night, with only 1 wakeup to nurse so I think we're doing good, even though we've never used CIO. The night before last he was waking up every 3 hours due to the growth spurt. Last night he had 1x5 hour stretch and 1x4 hour stretch, waking up due to hunger.

One more thing about the naps. DS was having really short naps, like 1/2 hour and waking up screaming. Since using the monitor, he has far less anxiety upon waking and I feel this is why his naps are longer now.

I apologize for the book!

[Strong_Mama]

I would say she's still a little young to start a full on CIO. She is hitting that age where she'll be going through a big growth spurt, so she probably does need to nurse. I started DS on CIO when he was about 4/4.5 months old. It would take about an hour of us going up every 5-10 minutes (depending on the cry) for him to actually fall asleep. Slowly we started giving him longer CIO periods. After about 10 days he would only fuss for about 10 minutes. I cant even remember when, but now he just gets laid down and eventually he'll fall asleep. I think he was about 6 months when he started the full night sleeps. He would usually wake up at least once, but would only need his soother back, and he'd fall asleep again.
CIO was one of the hardest things I've done so far as Mom. It was a very emotional experience for me, and at times I doubted if it was right or not. But after that 10 days, Im SO happy I did it. I now think it was also one of the best things I did for him. He feels safe and content in his crib. When he wakes up from naps or in the mornings he will sit in there for about an hour playing.
You have to decide when you think your child is ready for it. Every baby is different. Have you tried giving her a soother? I know they're controversial, but my son NEEDED that soother when he was a baby. We had to try a few different ones tho. He loves the Avent ones. I've recommended them to a few people who were having soother issues, and the Avent solved the problem. Also, do you swaddle her?? You may want to try if you havnt. DS was swaddled till he was about 9 months. He loved to be tightly wrapped up. By 9 months the swaddle would last half the night, but he needed it done to help him fall asleep.
Good luck!! If you want to talk more about it, feel free to email me. I had a really rough time with my DS when he was first born. He cried all day and all evening. He had such bad colick. My son would be screaming his head off, and alot of the time I would join him, lol. It does get better tho. Just stick with it and try to be strong

[new_mommy]

Hi Monikah,
Thanks for your reply

When she wakes up, does she seem genuinely hungry?

I originally thought that so I would feed her when she started crying...but she would only nurse for a couple minutes, pull off and cry some more. So I don't think that she's hungry.

When DS wakes up frequently, there is usually a reason, it just takes a little investigating. Right now, I think its hunger that's doing it and I expect things to go back to normal after this growth spurt. Some times its because he's too hot or cold. Sometimes its because I've swaddled him and he really wants his hands free so he can suck his thumb. Sometimes he's having trouble controlling his arms and needs swaddling.

Believe me I have tried everything before posting here. I have checked hunger, diaper, body temperature, room temperature, gas, etc. And I HAVE to swaddle her to sleep. She will rub her eyes profusely if I don't.

As for your DD having trouble falling asleep, can you try different positions to nurse her in?

I normally hold her in the clutch position and she lays on a couple pillows. I've tried cradling and laying on my side on the bed...but nothing seems to work. Sometimes she likes to bounced on my ab ball...but I don't want to start these "sleep crutches" that may make things worse in the long run.

[new_mommy]

Hi Mama to One,
Thanks for your input.

I was originally really against CIO. But my DH and I decided to start because she would cry whether she was being held or not. Sometimes the only thing that works is bouncing on the ab ball or sleeping the swing...but I don't want to start these bad sleep habits that I will regret.

I have tried giving DD a soother. She took it at about 2 months old although she needed one of us to hold it in for her. For some reason she couldn't hold on to it. She would suck on it until she fell asleep and then spit it out...which worked for me. But again...after 3 weeks...something changed. She no longer wanted it.

It's got to the point where I don't even want to take her out anymore because as soon as she gets tired, she will cry. Then people just stare at you like you are the worst mother (and to be honest I was one of those people...and I apologize to all those great mothers out there!). There are even times when we go out with friends or family. As soon as she cries for her nap...people always say "aww...baby's crying for her mommy. Mommy can calm her down." Then they hand her to me and are shocked when she continues to cry making me feel awful!

Today, I tried the CIO for her naps. This morning it took nearly 30 min (I picked her up after 15 min to calm her). Just now, she's down for her second nap...it only took 2 mins. I don't know if this is actually working? And you said it took you 10 days...I don't know if I can last that long.

Did you do the CIO for naps too?

[Sunnygirl]

Didn't read all the posts.

We did CIO at around 4.5 mo with ds. Worked great - within 3 days fully trained. We only did it at initial bedtime and at nap times. During the night you'll just give in if you're tired, so better not to make that a struggle.

The real purpose of CIO is to help them learn that you expect them to sleep when in their crib. Once they learn that's what they're supposed to do they no longer fight sleep and learn how to put themselves back to sleep. This then solves any during the night wakeups where they're not hungry. I think it's great -as then when they do wake up you know for sure they're hungry or something else is wrong.

Dd we started after around 5 mo I think and she took longer... many burp issues, etc. made things more complicated with her.

[Strong_Mama]

We did CIO for anything to do with sleeping.

As for the crying while out.... I know exactly how you feel!! People give you the nastiest looks. But I've learned that those people most likely dont have kids, and if they did, their babes were probably easy. Try not to take it to heart, and look for those faces that are looking at you with a smile on their faces. Those are the people who, like me, feel your pain and genuinely feel for you. My biggest hint to you is to try the Avent soothers. DS couldn't hold onto any other soother then that type. I swear, the first time I gave it to him I heard angels singing, lol.
And dont take it to heart when you cant calm her down when you're out. DS would cry no matter what. I would often end up leaving with my food not even touched and my screaming baby in toll.
Really... I promise... it does get easier, lol.

[multimom]

I just skimmed the other posts but my ds was fussy like that until I changed him to a lactose free formula. This involved stopping the breastfeeeding. I had tried the elimination diet so nothing would be leaching into the breastmilk but nothing helped. As soon as I put him onto the formula at 4 months, he slept threw the night. I had to let him cry it out for aout 15 minutes the first night and that was it. Eight hours after that from then on. This won't be everyone's answer of course, but thought I'd throw it out there just incase. HTH.

[hannysmomma]

I was worried about some of the same things you mentioned, so I spoke with my doctor. She said that lots of babies really aren't ready to start sleeping through the night (from a metabolic stand point) until they are 6 months old. That said, she said it won't hurt to begin some "sleep training" a bit earlier for their going to bed routine. She was careful to point out that it wouldn't really help the baby STAY asleep though, just prepare her for learning to sleep on her own.

I wasn't too worried about it though at the 3 month mark. In terms of your concern about teaching your daughter bad sleep habits: I have read MANY diiferent things (as I'm sure most new parents have!) with a variety of ideas in them. But one that stood out to me was "The Happiest Baby on the Block" by Dr. Harvey Karp - he basically said that in the first 3-4 months of a baby's life you really can't "spoil" them or teach them bad habits. He actually said that if the only place your baby will sleep is in the swing, then so be it, just make sure you make it a safe environment for them to sleep in (obviously). I took this to heart and on more than one occassion my daughter slept in the swing all night with me sleeping beside her on the couch I mean it makes sense...after being in a cozy womb for 9 months, a crib ain't all that appealing!

[jensfirst]

I don't have long to post, but just wanted to emphasize that everyone has well intentioned advice to give based on their own personal experiences, but at the end of the day, babies are so different. We did CIO for my DD when she was 6 months old and it worked great for getting her to be able to be put down to sleep awake so that we didn't have to spend soooo much time nursing her and rocking her to sleep. But it did NOT train her to sleep through the night. At 18 months old she still doesn't sleep through the night, and I am convinced no amount of sleep training would make her. I thought maybe when she was weaned from bfing (at 1 yr old) that she would stop waking up so much, but no luck. She never liked a soother, and I tried them all. She doesn't have a lactose sensitivity. It makes no difference whether she has a light on or off, and white noise doesn't help. All I am trying to say is that advice from others is great and can give you lots of ideas to try, but when it comes down to it, your baby is unique and may not react the same way to these different techniques as other babies did. I just say this because I personally got really frustrated when all of the things that seemed to work like magic for others did NOT work for us.

Anyways, hang in there, and go with your gut. I really felt that the decision to do CIO when we did was the right one, and I am glad we did it.

[new_mommy]

Thanks everyone.
I am not too concerned with her sleeping through the night...it will happen when it happens. I know she can do it since she has done it before. I'm guessing she's growth spurting or something right now.

I am just trying to get her to sleep on her own. As soon as she gets tired, she just cries and cries whether at home or out, whether in her bed, in the car seat or in my arms. She just cries when she is tired. I figure if she's going to cry in my arms anyway, I would try letting her cry in her bed.

[organic momma]

I'm about to lose my mind!

Our DD is about 3 and 1/2 months old and is such a bad sleeper/napper. I thought things were getting better when at 2 months she started to sleep 6 hour stretches. Her routine hasn't changed:

.

3 and a half months is way way to early to try any sort of crying in out method. Even experts who support crying it out do not suggest doing so before 6 months. Sleep routines are great to get into at this age but at 3 and a half months you baby is crying because he or she needs something. Waking every 2 and a half hours for a nursing baby is very common.

It sounds like they may have gas. I would try a feed and then maybe some gripe water.

Babies all go through growth spurts and during these their naps and night time sleeping and feeding habits change.

Have you gone to your local baby talk groups at the health units? I would suggest going to one and talking to the nurse there they should have some more ideas.

[new_mommy]

Sleep routines are great to get into at this age but at 3 and a half months you baby is crying because he or she needs something. Waking every 2 and a half hours for a nursing baby is very common.

We have talked to everyone possible. She does have reflux so sometimes it is an upset stomach. But from talking to all the moms I know...sometimes crying is simply crying. I am a little insulted at your comments suggesting that I haven't tried to figure out what's wrong. As her mommy who loves her I have tried everything to soothe her before even attempting this. When she cries, she is wanting sleep and I KNOW but she just gets frustrated when she doesn't fall asleep. And when I say CIO, we don't just leave her there to cry. We sit beside her rubbing her tummy, singing, etc.

It sounds like they may have gas. I would try a feed and then maybe some gripe water.

We have tried the gripe water and she hates it. She throws up after we give it to her. Her doctor told me not to use it anymore.

And to update everyone on how it's going...
Last night (night #6) she only cried a minute before looking around in her bed at her toys. She then coo's for a bit and falls asleep. I also tried to this for her naps yesterday and today. Just now, she cried maybe 30 sec then stared at her toys for a few minutes and fell asleep. So I think it's working and I feel great about it.

[Strong_Mama]

Yay!! She'll get better and better at it as time goes by. We used to joke that DS's crib was like a circus show because he loved having lots of toys to look at. Slowly we started taking them out as he started to roll of course. But even now at 14 months, he has about 6 stuffies in his crib. And if they're not all in there, he gets very upset with me, lol.
Well, congratulations on the progress!! I also thought I'd add that I know lots of babies have to cry themselves to sleep. Its just the way they are and there's nothing wrong with them.
I work with newborns and in the foster home I work for mostly, she has a baby that has to scream herself to sleep. It's just the way she works, lol. It's only for 5-10 minutes, but then she's fast asleep. She's almost 12 months old, and has been like that since she was about 3 months.